tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post8957505120272174712..comments2024-03-09T19:23:22.482-03:00Comments on The RPGPundit: Little Notes on Player-GM Power RelationsRPGPundithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-19324479823744242052015-03-01T05:45:02.755-03:002015-03-01T05:45:02.755-03:00One group might like, for some reason, a way of do...One group might like, for some reason, a way of doing things that in the bigger picture does not work as well for the general population.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-70744058829232525192015-02-28T20:51:04.301-03:002015-02-28T20:51:04.301-03:00Could you give an example, please? Given that diff...Could you give an example, please? Given that different methods of playing RPGs are meant to create good gaming experiences at the table, what sort of bigger picture could trump a specific group's experience?Deadstophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07844595286531971355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-73847803755927918172015-02-23T18:18:38.059-03:002015-02-23T18:18:38.059-03:00"Of course, some of those choices might end u..."Of course, some of those choices might end up in a dead character but that's another story.'<br /><br />That would be a short story then. ;-)Socrates_Is_Mortalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11979487483897210762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-56128827219780350002015-02-23T16:43:49.480-03:002015-02-23T16:43:49.480-03:00That's a very insightful analysis! The right w...That's a very insightful analysis! The right way for the GM to empower players is by creating the world, with a strict framework of how that world works, then NOT trying to impose a 'story' (only opportunities for a variety of scenarios, which is what a sandbox does), and then pressing the "start" button on the world (and as you say, keeping track of what goes on in the world, not like a novel but like a virtual-reality, where things are happening everywhere, not just where the PCs are, and where the PCs' actions create ripples that change the course of events in the world in a variety of ways). Then after doing all that, letting the players do what they want to do WITH THEIR CHARACTERS. <br />The right way for a player to feel empowered is to feel his character is empowered; that is, that what he chooses for his character to do actually matters, and that he can theoretically choose to do anything he wants with his character within the physical/mental/power limits of his character's actual ability. Of course, some of those choices might end up in a dead character but that's another story.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-79147789316706397452015-02-23T16:39:26.507-03:002015-02-23T16:39:26.507-03:00Omer: I certainly agree with you about the virtues...Omer: I certainly agree with you about the virtues of the sandbox. But it's the RIGHT response to the railroading-style of the 90s. The wrong response is "let's keep trying to 'make stories' but give the world-authoring power to the players now".<br /><br />RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-71772290633866512972015-02-23T13:38:30.761-03:002015-02-23T13:38:30.761-03:00Well the way I see it it all depends on what you w...Well the way I see it it all depends on what you want to do. If your game is "let's pretend to be adventurers (or Timelords or whatever)" nothing beats RPGs. If you want to play "let's write a story together" instead (as WW indeed advertised without providing the proper tools to do it) then storygames may be the way to go. Now that some people in the storygame scene went all vanguard of the proletariat when they found their thing, that's on them...Kyorouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03039756343930755030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-43205513140023074032015-02-23T10:29:08.500-03:002015-02-23T10:29:08.500-03:00Actually the greatest freedom to the players come,...Actually the greatest freedom to the players come, in my experience as a referee, from the sandbox. There is no pre-made plot; there might be factions and events outside the players' control, but the group's story is made by the players' actions, as well as their consequences as judged by the referee. The referee presents the world and responds to the players' actions; the players act. The game is player-led, not led by one big central plot written by the referee or by the module designers. The story is as coherent as the players want it to be. The referee needs power so that the players' actions will have a context and consequences and thus be meaningful.<br /><br />The entire notion that the game needs a proper 'story' (rather than facuon interests in the world and whatever the players wish to do) is one of those 1990's RPG "Big Ideas" which many of us fell into back then. In recent years I have learned to lean back and let the players do whatever they want (and face the consequences).Omer Golan-Joelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09242085820257230639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-85027909441053486932015-02-23T06:56:00.162-03:002015-02-23T06:56:00.162-03:00I believe that in the end, the players always end ...I believe that in the end, the players always end up with more power than the GM, at least if the GM is an honest GM and not a simple demiurge that has just a bunch of dice rolling drones.<br /><br />From my short experience playing, what feel makes a good GM is:<br />1-Tracking of information<br />2-Tracking of events<br />3-Providing or coming up with answers that would fit the setting no matter how strange the ideas the players have.<br />4-Dealing with the players and organizing the venue in a simple fashion.<br />5-Above all, coping with the endless fuckups and possibilities.<br /><br />I’ve played my great share of computer games and what I felt limiting and not appealing is the lack of possibilities, and if I were to want a game where my options are restricted, I’ll go right back at playing countless hours of computer games, actually steam keeps track of the hours ;), but not, I have a creative and active mind.<br /><br />I just know I don’t like being a dice rolling drone. <br />Bill the Elfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17104996613779881376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-65949308036978648742015-02-22T17:54:04.515-03:002015-02-22T17:54:04.515-03:00"Storygaming" got its start when Ron Edw..."Storygaming" got its start when Ron Edwards protested against the White-wolf style of 'storytelling', which consisted of a shitty authoritarian GM who imagined himself a great novelist 'weaving' a crappy tale that the PCs had to move from scene-to-scene to watch as passive cheerleaders for the GM's great events and great NPCs, and couldn't actually do anything to change the story.<br /><br />The reaction Edwards and co. had to that was "we have to change RPGs to something that can make story", but it was also "the answer to bad GMing is to castrate the GM". It was an inherent visceral reaction to the shitty format and shitty-gming of the White Wolf era, and lumped in with what Edwards & Co. understood to be "Bad story", which was story-imposed-by-the-GM.<br /><br />So yes, it was very much connected to player-GM conflict. Some significant figures in the Storygaming movement (Luke Crane, most notably) have been completely open about their utter contempt for the GM and his role, and for wanting to make him as powerless as possible to 'fuck up' their 'genius' game design (that will finally create 'coherent story', which the GM is the enemy of).RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-14633049421705128832015-02-22T17:49:18.604-03:002015-02-22T17:49:18.604-03:00Those two things are not necessarily contradictory...Those two things are not necessarily contradictory. An inferior method might work well for a given group, and yet still be inferior in the bigger picture of things.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-62617695402557050502015-02-22T14:32:13.038-03:002015-02-22T14:32:13.038-03:00Which still ends up as shit due to the simple fact...Which still ends up as shit due to the simple fact there is to many cooks in the kitchen. It is great to have your players have a little freedom than most traditional games, but they should never have a equal power to the game master. Nor should they be allowed to make up a setting along with the game master. Maybe a minor tweak here and there.Snowman0147https://www.blogger.com/profile/04811245101715889991noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-49952359964839933472015-02-22T05:01:35.903-03:002015-02-22T05:01:35.903-03:00Pundit, I've been reading this series (sorta) ...Pundit, I've been reading this series (sorta) of posts for a while. If I get it right, you think the reason storygames exist is to placate bad, tyrannical GMs ? The way I see it, it proceeds instead from a desire from the players to be more active and to contribute to the game in terms of universe, NPCs, story ideas, etc. with the added benefit of alleviating the work of the GM.<br /><br />I don't play that way because I think it comes at the cost of losing the sense of wonder and immersion RPGs provide but it seems to me there's no GM-Players conflict at the core of the storygaming approach.Kyorouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03039756343930755030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-66583181189766152992015-02-21T20:37:35.113-03:002015-02-21T20:37:35.113-03:00Could it not be that different playstyles and divi...Could it not be that different playstyles and divisions of authority work for different groups? Must one be objectively superior?Deadstophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07844595286531971355noreply@blogger.com