tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post1347270095066407892..comments2024-03-09T19:23:22.482-03:00Comments on The RPGPundit: Yes, Virginia, you can be Literally Logically WRONG About RPGsRPGPundithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-32157710928550303092014-05-15T00:58:39.661-04:002014-05-15T00:58:39.661-04:00Thank you.Thank you.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-30016293753510779672014-05-15T00:44:11.757-04:002014-05-15T00:44:11.757-04:00Tee hee, this stuff is hilarious, keep it coming!Tee hee, this stuff is hilarious, keep it coming!Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-35513399310170996262014-05-07T19:20:24.742-04:002014-05-07T19:20:24.742-04:00Jeffrey: no. In the best case scenario you end up ...Jeffrey: no. In the best case scenario you end up with an ILLUSORY "blending" of story and game. There's no actual blending. In the best case scenario, one of the two or both still has to die a little in order to let something happen that isn't really a great game and could probably have been a better story if the rules weren't in the way.<br /><br />And yes, if a "traditional" RPG fails at Immersion or Emulation, then we very much do dismiss them as failures. Consistently, the RPGs that do the best possible job of encouraging both these qualities end up being the most popular RPGs. That's why D&D is more popular than Cyborg Commando.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-69020743097595859622014-05-07T11:12:56.253-04:002014-05-07T11:12:56.253-04:00I agree, in "good" roleplaying, story is...I agree, in "good" roleplaying, story is incidental, not conscious. The "story" of a group's campaign (again, in "good" roleplaying) can only be seen AFTER a game session. During said session, there is an interplay between the GM, the players, and the randomness of the dice combined with the randomness of the players' decisions (which arise from their whims, creativity, deductive reasoning, and all their other faculties). <br /><br />A "bad" game session is little more than cooperative storytelling, which is not bad in and of itself. It's just not roleplaying in the sense of the word connected to RPGs. If you've determined the plot with a heavy hand BEFORE a game session begins, that's the little thing we like to call a "railroad."<br /><br />Honestly, I don't know why people are still confused by all this stuff...Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-35661722514378559602014-05-07T10:22:52.736-04:002014-05-07T10:22:52.736-04:00You're still defining a case solely based on i...You're still defining a case solely based on its failure scenarios, though. There are successes. When you play those games as they were intended, with good faith effort, you will (at least some of the time) end up with a successful blending of story and game.<br /><br />Traditional RPGs also occasionally fail to be immersive or possess verisimilitude sometimes- we don't summarily dismiss them as failures wholesale because of it.Jeffrey Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10814355001310671787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-80313206333810328992014-05-07T02:10:15.964-04:002014-05-07T02:10:15.964-04:00Its about ultimate fulfillment. First, yes, while...Its about ultimate fulfillment. First, yes, while you can impose certain story-elements into a game, these are almost always done in ways that will actually thwart the gameplay element. Railroading and "illusionism" are both classic examples of what happens when GMs try to impose story on the game; players lose their sense of agency, and the world its sense of virtual realism. These, as well as any method that requires players to step up out of the mindset of their characters and make reality-affecting "meta-decisions", all end up damaging the ability to engage in Immersion in your character and the world. <br /><br />And at the end of the day, you hit the paradox sooner or later. A player who has come to believe that RPGs are about "making story" will not be satisfied with the argument that 'this is how the dice dropped' when his would-be Luke Skywalker gets shot to death by nameless stormtroopers the second he lands on the imperial planet his player was planning to liberate.<br /><br />On the other hand, the player who actually wants to play the RPG will be just as frustrated if he feels that all his gameplay was ultimately meaningless because it all gets handwaved away by a GM who wants to make sure the "story" turns out right.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-49212673575700797912014-05-06T23:31:31.487-04:002014-05-06T23:31:31.487-04:00It almost seems to actually validate that it can b...It almost seems to actually validate that it can be ABOUT both story and game, and it just has the potential to fall short of either.<br /><br />Essentially, those points/etc. give the POSSIBILITY for successfully blending story and game, and one that increases with the group's experience and skill at playing that particular system.<br /><br />During those successful runs, where they drop plot twists and deftly manage points, they've sacrificed neither and enjoyed both. They didn't have to choose one or the other. What do you classify those games as then?<br /><br />(I, personally, would argue that they were gaming, and leave it at that. But I have a different, more technical, less traditional view of what an RPG is, different from the one that's stated in this article.)Jeffrey Turnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10814355001310671787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-73277078464420977482014-05-06T19:23:57.201-04:002014-05-06T19:23:57.201-04:00In some cases, these "plot points" etc. ...In some cases, these "plot points" etc. may appear to be story-related, but are actually about enforcing the emulation of the world. In those cases its not really about "and then this happens" as it is "I can use power x" or "I get a +2 to my roll".<br /><br />In other cases these are really an attempt to enforce story. So let's look at those with the same logical structure as above:<br />You have points that are supposed to allow story to happen in the game, right?<br />So does it? If you are in a situation where you are losing, do you use the plot point to win?<br />If you do, is it for "the sake of the story"? If not, then you're not using it according to its alleged purpose, and are engaging in game-play not story making.<br /><br />That aside, let's say you use it for story purposes. Can you use it, and then the change doesn't actually guarantee a result that creates a better story? For example, if it just give you a bonus to try to achieve something, but you can still fail at that something (said something allegedly being something that would improve story), then its failing at what it claims to be for. It still ends up being just a fucked-up kind of game play.<br /><br />What if you run out of points, and a situation where the rules contradict what an ideal story-result would be emerges? You're right back to the start: ignore the lack of points and change things for the sake of 'story' anyways, and you're no longer playing a game at all. On the other hand, stick to your guns and you've once again sacrificed "Story" at the altar of gameplay.<br /><br />So even those point-type systems that are an attempt to infuse story into a game do not change the fundamental Pundit Paradox: It can't be about BOTH "story" and "game".RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-39405995141671389612014-05-06T09:02:39.677-04:002014-05-06T09:02:39.677-04:00What about games where there are mechanisms specif...What about games where there are mechanisms specifically for altering the plot built in (such as Fate, Cortex, Savage Worlds, etc)? I'm talking about Hero points, plot points, whatever, where the players have some agency in altering the world built in to the game?glenn griswoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02400188957906498167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-69730813228551264242014-05-06T08:09:13.363-04:002014-05-06T08:09:13.363-04:00"I'll note too that while people who reco..."I'll note too that while people who recognize this problem and insist on trying to "Make" RPGs tell stories are doing it wrong; they're not doing it nearly as wrong as the people who are clinging to the logical fallacy that you can somehow have it both ways, that you can make both "game" and "story" absolutely equal priorities in your RPG play. Those people are being illogical idiots."<br />Agnosticism.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-67359223461978422342014-05-06T06:49:12.867-04:002014-05-06T06:49:12.867-04:00This is not, again, an arbitrary argument, its jus...This is not, again, an arbitrary argument, its just a logical proof. And the fact is that Ron Edwards makes exactly the same point in his Forge essays. Its very simple: RPGs, as they're designed, are not made to "create story". That's his huge criticism, for example, fo the White Wolf "Storytelling" games, that they have NOTHING in the mechanics that make them any more effective at "telling stories" than D&D; and all the same problems that would get in the way of actual 'storytelling', because the game mechanics would always be at odds with any goal of CONSCIOUS story creation.<br /><br />Of course, his conclusion is that RPGs should be radically altered in order to be mainly about creating story; while mine is that RPGs should be about exactly what they are and people who are seeking to "consciously tell stories" should reassess their idea that RPGs are the way to make that happen. Same understanding, totally different conclusions.<br /><br />I'll note too that while people who recognize this problem and insist on trying to "Make" RPGs tell stories are doing it wrong; they're not doing it nearly as wrong as the people who are clinging to the logical fallacy that you can somehow have it both ways, that you can make both "game" and "story" absolutely equal priorities in your RPG play. Those people are being illogical idiots.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-489343231690240462014-05-06T03:48:46.055-04:002014-05-06T03:48:46.055-04:00Changing or ignoring rules isn't the same thin...Changing or ignoring rules isn't the same thing as ignoring them for the sake of story. Pundits argument is that story games are not role playing games. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-85315693317375153762014-05-06T03:19:32.118-04:002014-05-06T03:19:32.118-04:00I have to disagree. I would wager money that every...I have to disagree. I would wager money that every RPG book you own has a line, paragraph, rule or page says the cardinal rule of the game is that everybody have fun and if the rules get in the way they should be suspended, ignored, or altered. Even 1st edition AD&D has a statement to this effect.Patrick Mallahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04906639025904535922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-61795926319271445962014-05-06T02:25:13.852-04:002014-05-06T02:25:13.852-04:00They are definitely the same crowd.
Yet I tend to...They are definitely the same crowd. <br />Yet I tend to agree with the "have fun" axiom. If it floats their boat, let them be Victorians in sexual angst. And as much as quasireligious ruleslawyering makes for a poor rpg evening, so does excessive carebearism. The rp-style differs from group to group, somewhere between the poles, and that fluid social contract is what makes the hobby so much more interesting than, say, Carambol. Or Snakes and Ladders.ahabicherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07957089120858129775noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-71955707461312847662014-05-06T01:06:24.875-04:002014-05-06T01:06:24.875-04:00"while expressive story-crafting exercises ab..."while expressive story-crafting exercises about sexually-confused victorian college professors has not." <br />This sort of stuff is now fundamental to the dislike of RPG Indie hipsters. It's not their gaming preferences so much add the pretentious, group therapy crap. They remind me of left anarchists. Hell, they're probably the same crowd. That stuff is gayer than Liberace on a unicorn. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-5047992545947833562014-05-05T16:34:54.096-04:002014-05-05T16:34:54.096-04:00Well since you are talking about me, I will cover ...Well since you are talking about me, I will cover the points you state point by point-<br /><br />1) I am not a swine (a personal attack is clear sign that your argument is weak and has been exposed you have to make a desperate attack to someone). Also, please point to any of my posts where I said you were irrelevant or admit you are lying. I never said you were irrelevant so starting out your post with an insult and a lie shows you have very poor debating skills.<br /><br />Secondly, all I said is most likely you trying to say yours is the one true way (which of course if hypocritical because you claim so much that you dislike One tru Wayism). I also said and I quote "Dollars to Donuts people aren't going to change the way the play because they way they play is fun to them- or something like that- it's not word for word but close). Of course you respond with Hyberbole.<br /><br />Then you take what I said as being a fan of storygames (which I am not) and the fact I was talking about playing RPGS in general (I wasn't talking about one game style). So you clearly like to jump to conclusions and make inferences statements that were not made.<br /><br />I am going to ignore your snakes and ladders references because, they have nothing to do with the subject and are just hyberbole.<br /><br />You are saying that if a group is playing the game to form a story that's opposed concept, well that is true, but it is only opposed to people like you who don't like that type of gaming. It's not opposed to all gamers.<br /><br />Again, and it was said by the panelists in the chat that if the group is having fun, they are playing right. That's playing role playing games correctly. You are welcome to have your opinion and it differs from most gamers I know, but from the gamers I know the way you game is in the minority. Doesn't mean you can't have your opinions or you are irrelevant (although I never said that in the first place) but you speak for a small portion of gamers out there. <br /><br />I think you take the hobby way too seriously. It's about having fun, and if the group is having fun how you are playing/running the game then you are playing rpgs correctly. And that will never changeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com