tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post1632306461957151075..comments2024-03-09T19:23:22.482-03:00Comments on The RPGPundit: Using Mechanics to Subsidize Actual Roleplaying Only Favors IncompetenceRPGPundithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-32384171893689148102016-09-23T11:18:45.409-04:002016-09-23T11:18:45.409-04:00It depends. I'm in favor of favoritism, in cer...It depends. I'm in favor of favoritism, in certain cases. RPGs don't have to be all or nothing; neither do they have to adhere to a single style, format, or procedure. Take everything into account - effort, skill, scores, dice, and story. At the end of the day, players try and the GM decides... right or wrong.Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-30440146534832503662016-09-23T10:49:11.420-04:002016-09-23T10:49:11.420-04:00As I said in G+, roleplaying isn't just the th...As I said in G+, roleplaying isn't just the thing you do between combats. You're playing the role of your character the entire time you're at the table. And as you say, unless you "automate it completely," it's difficult to separate player abilities from character ones. That's why we have attributes and dice! And if you're going to use that to figure out resolution only part of the time, it completely devalues parts of the character mechanically. Player has a good idea and the character is dumb? Let then roll under INT to see if their character thinks of it. Character is a smooth talker but the player isn't? Have then explain what they attempt to do and how, and let the dice decide if they succeed or not. Character is smarter than the player? Roll to see if they figure out the puzzle, even if the player doesn't (or give additional hints, or partially complete it, etc.).<br /><br />The whole reason we have these rule systems is to avoid the game becoming nothing more than make-believe. It provides a structured framework for task resolution that abstracts away the reality that we, as players and GMs, can't do the things our characters can. In the rare instance that we are more able than our avatars in some way, I have a really hard time with providing a mechanical benefit for that, since it's antithetical to the rest of the game.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03465823310010238422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-43191957276512386892016-09-23T05:50:10.141-04:002016-09-23T05:50:10.141-04:00Combat is not the best example as to why this is n...Combat is not the best example as to why this is not that great of an idea. Look to other, stat-based events in-game. Do we demand our players demonstrate the ability to dead lift XXX pounds of weight in order to bend bars/lift-gates? Of course not, they are 99% dorks with little to no upper body strength. Do they solve the puzzle, or is the in-world, in-game puzzle for the wizard with the high IQ? I came up in early 80's where the players were smart and solved all the problems, often regardless of the numbers attached to the character sheet. That is just as disingenuous as forcing someone to roleplay or else.SavageCheerleaderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832023627102128364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-83537441990970782182016-09-23T05:33:06.653-04:002016-09-23T05:33:06.653-04:00No, to most of your examples, because again, we...No, to most of your examples, because again, we're talking about Roleplaying Games, not "stealing stuff games" or "drinking poison games". <br />As for Wisdom, it's an interesting thing to bring up, because there's really no viable way (at least, not without removing EVERY LAST TRACE of roleplaying or player choice from the equation) where you could adequately substitute the Wiseness you think the PC should have for the wisdom you as a player actually do have. Just like with CHA, the WIS stat/bonus could be used to mitigate enormous fuckups you might make from being less wise than your character's stats suggest, but there's no way to make up for a dumb player running a supposedly wise character unless you automate it completely.<br /><br />And that's what complex 'social mechanics/combat' rules try to do with charisma. You've inadvertently served my argument.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-58523848994368501782016-09-23T02:31:41.313-04:002016-09-23T02:31:41.313-04:00Everyone seems to be focused on the social/combat ...Everyone seems to be focused on the social/combat dichotomy, but what about all the other systems that have few or no rules? Players and characters are going to have differing levels of intelligence, constitution, and dexterity as well. Should a player be required to hold down the same alcohol and poisons as their character? Must they solve the same puzzles, even if their character is the smarter of the pair? So they need to steal the GM's dice to prove that their character is deft at slight of hand? And what about wisdom?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03465823310010238422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-70513011396841637022016-09-23T02:31:28.728-04:002016-09-23T02:31:28.728-04:00Everyone seems to be focused on the social/combat ...Everyone seems to be focused on the social/combat dichotomy, but what about all the other systems that have few or no rules? Players and characters are going to have differing levels of intelligence, constitution, and dexterity as well. Should a player be required to hold down the same alcohol and poisons as their character? Must they solve the same puzzles, even if their character is the smarter of the pair? So they need to steal the GM's dice to prove that their character is deft at slight of hand? And what about wisdom?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03465823310010238422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-83038506693343066102016-09-22T23:27:37.694-04:002016-09-22T23:27:37.694-04:00Someone brought up wargames; sarcastically claimin...Someone brought up wargames; sarcastically claiming that wargames must be about social interaction because there are no rules for it.<br /><br />Obviously not, but what wargames ARE about is strategic decisions. In a wargame you roll dice to see how many hits you have on an enemy unit. But you don't roll dice to see where you, as a commander, will move your units. You decide it. There's no rules for leading your forces, which IS the point of a wargame.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-77033783576006971912016-09-22T20:52:46.084-04:002016-09-22T20:52:46.084-04:00Anders, I partially agree with the original post. ...Anders, I partially agree with the original post. I don't like the way D&D 3.x and Pathfinder handle Diplomacy, which by RAW allows you to roll a die and potentially make a hostile guard your loyal servant. I do feel that how the player describes how they handle the situation should modify the chance of success, and I'm open to the idea of really stupid approaches automatically failing. I just disagree with the idea that there should never be social mechanics of any sort in RPGs.Kevin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06076147424768269913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-24154534362139368492016-09-22T20:45:21.165-04:002016-09-22T20:45:21.165-04:00If I suck at shooting but want to play a sniper in...If I suck at shooting but want to play a sniper in an RPG, by your standards pundit I will always fail, because I lack the necessary real life skills. But what this post seems to miss is the fact that rpg's are games of imagination. The PC sniper in this example, if he possesses the skills that the player lacks should not be handicapped bacause I can't hit the broad side of a barn in real life.Efiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07324613063326368764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-79594128573999964592016-09-22T17:32:58.498-04:002016-09-22T17:32:58.498-04:00The problem with this entry is not about the argum...The problem with this entry is not about the arguments. All of them could be valid in an advisory context.<br /><br />The problem is that it is phrased in a context of 'and all those with smaller dicks than me have no dicks at all'. <br /><br />The only point worth discussing here is how bad the smell of spunk in the room is. The obvious point *not* worth discussing is that the talk is about wanking and who is the biggest wanker. Anders Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11654797360283177027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-35201826330312636202016-09-22T17:25:50.677-04:002016-09-22T17:25:50.677-04:00"An RPG is made for roleplaying. Combat is ab..."An RPG is made for roleplaying. Combat is abstracted not because it's more important, but because it's LESS important."<br /><br />Of course. I forgot that the way you figure out what a game's really about is to look at what it *doesn't* have rules for. That's why wargames have extensive rules for social interaction and no rules for combat. Oh, wait a minute....Kevin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06076147424768269913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-60413834089061808292016-09-22T17:18:34.307-04:002016-09-22T17:18:34.307-04:00You do realize that you can do both, right? You co...You do realize that you can do both, right? You could easily have the conversation and then have the die roll, modified by how well the players figured out (or didn't) how to appeal to the dragon.<br /><br />And honestly, I think there's a conflation of terms that don't necessarily mean the same thing. Roleplaying doesn't mean "social interaction." Roleplaying is the assumption of a role. The essence of roleplaying is understanding how your character would react to a situation, not being able to deliver a theatrical-quality performance at the game table. Roleplaying, for the player, is an internal process, not an external one. Nothing about how the character affects the external (game) world should be exclusively dependent on the character's ability to do something in real life because forcing you to be yourself in the context of the game takes away from your assumption of the role.Kevin S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06076147424768269913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-34164237155764070862016-09-22T13:39:40.065-04:002016-09-22T13:39:40.065-04:00You can't equate role playing rules with comba...You can't equate role playing rules with combat rules. The reason we need a system of rules to resolve combat is because we can't actually hit each other with swords during the game.<br /><br />We can, however, talk to each other. You don't need rules for something that you're already doing. <br /><br />If you want to convince that dragon to help you, then convince that dragon to help you. Converting that conversation into a die roll robs the players of the experience of negotiating with that dragon. <br /><br />The Reaction Table is just a tool to help DMs decide which way to go in the case they aren't completely 100% convinced. It's not a mechanic which dictates interaction.Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-36940690428067504162016-09-22T13:38:33.368-04:002016-09-22T13:38:33.368-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Hedgehobbithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17606283586332210195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-73995169454329527632016-09-22T10:50:03.593-04:002016-09-22T10:50:03.593-04:00D&D isn't a "Combat Interpreting Game...D&D isn't a "Combat Interpreting Game", it's a "ROLE PLAYING Game".RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-90234565795763131712016-09-22T09:45:45.577-04:002016-09-22T09:45:45.577-04:00I demand that my players describe their actions ju...I demand that my players describe their actions just as it would look in a normal fight, and if they can't do it, then I will throw them out of my game. Obviously they can't play roleplaying games.Rickardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05926490775383821342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-57453304311447718992016-09-22T09:12:17.972-04:002016-09-22T09:12:17.972-04:00Rules for social interaction have existed in D&...Rules for social interaction have existed in D&D since the Reaction Table. Your choice of going à la Amber with this matter is valid but so would be the choice of approaching it as yet another wargame.<br />De gustibus and so on.Kyorouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03039756343930755030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-34072761243141574382016-09-22T07:07:18.307-04:002016-09-22T07:07:18.307-04:00I like to play characters with a low WIS and/or CH...I like to play characters with a low WIS and/or CHA so they are easier for a duffer like me to play properly.Scott Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12067161332003628237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-71063584919113064382016-09-22T06:56:19.273-04:002016-09-22T06:56:19.273-04:00Well said. One of the dumbest ideas in the hobby i...Well said. One of the dumbest ideas in the hobby is this notion that "something should always happen" when a PC tries to do something. In the real world there's tons of times when you try to accomplish something and nothing happens.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-76806883174013918412016-09-22T06:35:34.440-04:002016-09-22T06:35:34.440-04:00Some of the people who advise how to GM suggest th...Some of the people who advise how to GM suggest that players should really get what they want. Put a few obstacles in their way by all means, but don't stop them. I have never been sure that this is a good idea. If they are going to get what they want anyway, why have skills and dice It is possible to fail and keep failing. In old school games, this seemed to to be more of the way things are. Games are about competition and it should be remembered that sometimes people fail. That said, if you fail at one thing, then maybe you need to try another. Frontal assault is not always going to win and it is wrong for a GM to ease up on people when they choose suicide by cop per dragon.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16293162456263037331noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-70769484905705772852016-09-22T05:51:05.938-04:002016-09-22T05:51:05.938-04:00Why not a good roll gives you more collaboration w...Why not a good roll gives you more collaboration with the GM on what would be effective in the game world?Fatherlesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02104574682084760858noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-68843962434226259602016-09-22T05:16:40.066-04:002016-09-22T05:16:40.066-04:00An RPG is made for roleplaying. Combat is abstract...An RPG is made for roleplaying. Combat is abstracted not because it's more important, but because it's LESS important. <br />Elitists like to claim that old-school D&D is "just a wargame" because it has not roleplaying social rules. <br />In fact, the addition of social rules just makes roleplaying into a 'wargame'.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-46975857185021923212016-09-22T03:30:13.515-04:002016-09-22T03:30:13.515-04:00Are you fine with NPCs selling your character the ...Are you fine with NPCs selling your character the Brooklyn Bridge whether you want them to or not? If so, why not?Boshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06908715118408289864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-87232328222653851982016-09-22T03:18:34.423-04:002016-09-22T03:18:34.423-04:00Nailed it. In RPGs a big part of the fun is playin...Nailed it. In RPGs a big part of the fun is playing someone *other* than yourself. It's not a public speaking training ground.<br /><br />Good for RPGPundit that he only games with method actors and other elite roleplayers, I guess. Shame he had to call out everyone else as being tied to mommy's apron strings.Anders Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11654797360283177027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-75739879854618326932016-09-22T03:12:17.855-04:002016-09-22T03:12:17.855-04:00Oh man. Someone's having BadWrongFun at the ta...Oh man. Someone's having BadWrongFun at the table now.<br /><br />Time to go diceless. Systemless is the real OSR.Anders Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11654797360283177027noreply@blogger.com