tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post2480723324142441733..comments2024-03-09T19:23:22.482-03:00Comments on The RPGPundit: Wait.. is 5e Making Grognards Suddenly Claim Character-optimization is More Important Than Roleplay?RPGPundithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-43502773998042197162014-07-03T09:15:15.462-04:002014-07-03T09:15:15.462-04:00As for DnD 5E? I'm doing the smart thing and r...As for DnD 5E? I'm doing the smart thing and reserving my judgement for when I've actually read through the rules (and providing they aren't FATAL-bad, which I doubt they will be) played it.<br /><br />I'm not going to fall prey to the kind of thinking that just happened here.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14353727171456941590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-14986676772823791422014-07-03T09:12:17.712-04:002014-07-03T09:12:17.712-04:00Let's be honest here- The members of "sto...Let's be honest here- The members of "story game" communities who hate everything non-narrative are a vocal minority that I myself can't stand to be around (for the same elitism problems that came up in this post, sadly), because they completely miss the point of their systems of choice; To present a viable alternative to OSR systems for games and campaigns where they're not ideal. There is no universal truth or unified theory to gaming. Thinking this relies on the same sort of thinking televangelists prey on to make their money.<br /><br />What do I think OSR is? A way of doing things that realizes the things older games did right, and builds on them in an effort to emulate the same style while producing an original product.<br /><br />Narrative Gaming is about finding the things older PnP games couldn't do as effectively and modelling systems around doing those things, it's about enforcing roleplaying through mechanics. The story is still, with a good GM, not prone to railroading.<br /><br />Unlike certain elements of this community or Evil Hat's fanbase, I recognize that making PnP games work is about tradeoffs. The question is, do you?<br /><br />In closing, the difference between different types of PnP RPG is one of focus in mechanics. One is NOT better than the other, they're like comparing a fresh, tasty apple to a well made, durable yet comfortable pair of shoes. They exist for different reasons, cater to different needs, and in all honesty they should not be competing with each other at all for reasons of being completely different types of things. The fanbases are completely different or are, in some cases, members of both. Why, one of the most fanatic GURPS players I know happens to LOVE the Fate system games because it scratches a completely different itch. I used to host Fate and BRP for a group in Apple Valley that was otherwise entirely DnD centric, and THEY enjoyed it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14353727171456941590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-16548123743265079512014-05-28T14:06:26.835-04:002014-05-28T14:06:26.835-04:00It seems like that was pretty much literally what ...It seems like that was pretty much literally what you just said above, actually. That the "newbies" would find it too hard a step and would leave the game because of it.<br /><br />RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-25119906996714652312014-05-28T10:22:54.939-04:002014-05-28T10:22:54.939-04:00This isn't what I'm saying.This isn't what I'm saying.Benoisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18318309230835219538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-85703048901848984492014-05-27T17:50:32.746-04:002014-05-27T17:50:32.746-04:00Clearly, I disagree; and I think its a knee-jerk r...Clearly, I disagree; and I think its a knee-jerk reaction to think that teenagers, who post selfies to say 'hello', pirate all their TV, and have found more hardcore porn by the time they were 13 than I'd probably seen until I was 20, are going to have an impossibly hard time downloading a PDF onto their smartphones.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-38528953039159796702014-05-27T16:25:24.973-04:002014-05-27T16:25:24.973-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.The Dungeon Delverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02264049494334933735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-13327503544773673812014-05-27T16:13:35.047-04:002014-05-27T16:13:35.047-04:00It is, when you consider character generation part...It is, when you consider character generation part of the primary function of role playing games, which is to explore the realms of YOUR OWN imagination, to paraphrase the old TSR tagline. <br /><br />Since you called me an OSR Taliban above (and fuck you very much for that), I'll just repost my actual position on this question, sans paraphrasing, partial-quoting bullshit: <br /><br />"I am one of those people who believe that one of the chief aspects that differentiate tabletop role playing games from any other type of game, role playing or not, is the ability to explore the worlds of YOUR OWN imagination, and that includes the ability for the starting player to create his or her OWN alter-ego in the game-world from scratch. It is not rocket science, and if 5e does indeed live up to its promises, it shouldn't take more than a page spread to explain how to do it in the starter set.<br /><br />Skipping on this is kinda like not including color on a flat-screen TV because you can always download that option from the internet later on. It doesn't make any sense to me. It is missing one of the chief defining attributes of tabletop role playing games, and what makes them distinctively attractive in addition to all the other sources of entertainment that already exist out there. <br /><br />It's dumb. Flat out stupid, to me.<br /><br />And requiring even just one more step, to have to go to a website and download more out of it to finally get to the actual thing that differentiates these games from everything else, is one step too much that already loses X number of newbies who could have been hooked with it if it had been in the starter set to begin with. If you do any kind of website design or anything having to do with ergonomics, you'll know that that one single additional step represents an obstacle for some people who'll just not consider it, move on to something else before they get around to do it, and so on, so forth. <br /><br />Is it the end of the world? Nope. Does that mean that 5e itself will suck? I don't know. Will I check it out? I will, I have to. Do I have a grudge against WotC, do I want it to fail? Nope, quite the contrary, actually. Is it still super-dumb to not have character generation in the starter set? It is!<br /><br />That's my actual position on the subject."<br /><br />Man, I'm such an old school taliban, wanting WotC to succeed and all. I can hardly contain myself I'm foaming so much at the mouth.Benoisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18318309230835219538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-90504729452225053362014-05-27T16:05:40.141-04:002014-05-27T16:05:40.141-04:00It comes down to first principles. The question w...It comes down to first principles. The question was "what is the entire fucking point" of RPGs? "Character creation", whether its as simple as 'roll 3d6 six times' or whether its super-complex feat-selection, is NOT the answer to that question.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-80688772833038418212014-05-27T15:51:07.098-04:002014-05-27T15:51:07.098-04:00I can't believe you're stupid enough to th...I can't believe you're stupid enough to think that character creation is charop, Pundit. Only you, man. Only you.The Dungeon Delverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02264049494334933735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-56336882649679522012014-05-27T15:14:20.925-04:002014-05-27T15:14:20.925-04:00Trying to pin the idea that character generation a...Trying to pin the idea that character generation allows people to actually create the guy they have in their mind as their own unique persona to explore the realms of their own imaginations as some sort of equivalent to character optimization, denner style, is a really, really dumb strawman argument. Benoisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18318309230835219538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-85093940683287666112014-05-25T22:19:56.554-04:002014-05-25T22:19:56.554-04:00Yes, precisely right.Yes, precisely right.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-68674103847448167922014-05-25T15:52:46.555-04:002014-05-25T15:52:46.555-04:00@Cyrus - re: content... That makes sense. I was co...@Cyrus - re: content... That makes sense. I was considering rules reprints only and not taking into account the additional "compatible" content.<br /><br />I just happened to perused some of the OSR rule sets and really thought there were missed opportunities to make some clean up, which is why I like C&C.Raging Owlbearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10556804177905125874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-51280378030675503122014-05-25T09:57:32.342-04:002014-05-25T09:57:32.342-04:00WOTC wanted to make a product that is as simple as...WOTC wanted to make a product that is as simple as possible while conveying the basic experiance in order to introduce new players to the game. They play tested various versions of their set with total newbs with that goal in mind. I know they originally talked about character generation in the starter set, but no doubt that didn't playtest as well as we would think. It's fun, but it slows the start of the game down. The basic experiance is role playing through an adventure. Using pregens lets the new players skip straight to that. And while including character generation rules in the box sounds nice, it adds to the number of rules in the box. Using the web to provide additional rules is actually a nice tool to help keep the rules in the box as few as possible. I'm sure they would not have risked the completely predictable gnashing of teeth about character generation unless all the playtesting with easily bored teenage newbs distracted by anything shiny didn't convince them of the advanteges of keeping another layer rules out of the box.<br /><br />And anything kept out of the box does help them undercut the price of anything the competitor has out. This starter set is now 12 something on amazon. They will have an intro set out that will (1) be the cheepest, (2) be as rules light as possible to introduce new players, and (3) is attached to a famous brand. Not too shabby.mandukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14289798853357681076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-32541944530334288512014-05-25T09:24:18.161-04:002014-05-25T09:24:18.161-04:00The same foundational principles have to apply reg...The same foundational principles have to apply regardless of what extreme of the spectrum you're looking at. If RPGs are about character creation mechanics and the ability to choose how your character looks, then by that logic complex 3.5e-style CharOp (or GURPS Point-Buy-Everything!) would be superior to OD&D's relatively restricted set of freedoms.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-67608010503672763872014-05-25T02:45:12.031-04:002014-05-25T02:45:12.031-04:00A pretty unfair comment on the moderator in questi...A pretty unfair comment on the moderator in question, and in any case excluding a wide middle between NO character modification rules whatsoever and full-on charOp feat lists. Windjammerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04698459678843671796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-52736592888882388222014-05-24T14:39:20.278-04:002014-05-24T14:39:20.278-04:00I hope WOTC does a nice smart-phone optimized copy...I hope WOTC does a nice smart-phone optimized copy of the chargen rules. I'd really like to see PDFs in different page sizes, like A4 and A5, but that's reaching. The way I see it, you don't need chargen rules during a game session; it's OK if they're in a separate document from the main rulebook. If you die, you can make a character and the other player can still refer to the rules proper. <br /><br />I'm intrigued with doing E6 with the starter set: http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)/Introduction#How_E6_WorksErichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07649420272387984400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-22420833448717486172014-05-23T18:59:49.687-04:002014-05-23T18:59:49.687-04:00Double shit. I meant its a great time to be a ROLE...Double shit. I meant its a great time to be a ROLEPLAYER. Autocorrect blows.Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-33653282227195041552014-05-23T18:58:05.941-04:002014-05-23T18:58:05.941-04:00Shit, effing auto correct. I meant, what is everyo...Shit, effing auto correct. I meant, what is everyone BITCHING about?!Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-23226497451634047672014-05-23T18:56:54.576-04:002014-05-23T18:56:54.576-04:00Why is everyone notching so much?! I don't get...Why is everyone notching so much?! I don't get it at all. This is an amazing time to be a replayed. I never imagined this as a kid! There's a metric ton of options out there, and more all the time. There's creativity abundant and so many other gamers to share with online and in person. I don't see what the problem is for some people. Its a great time! Oh and about the online rules thing...um don't we have laptops and smartphones and tablets? In other words...who the hell is worried abput printing? Im old and even I know printing isnt the only option for accessing online stuff at the game table. Call that stuff up on the portable computing device, folks. Anthony Simeonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04312134763577949405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-45879480424131986292014-05-23T18:49:28.710-04:002014-05-23T18:49:28.710-04:00How hard is it to create a character even w/o expl...How hard is it to create a character even w/o explicit rules? Just take a gander at the pregenerated ones, change some stuff around to suit yourself, there you go. Reminds me of the complaints about the old TSR Indiana Jones game being "unplayable" due to no rules for making up your own Indiana Jones type of characters. Give kids some credit; we just made them up anyway back then.<br /><br />Not to say I have any interest in a new D&D; I just don't get why no character creation rules in the starter box is such a big deal.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-23138652751213172242014-05-23T16:52:27.785-04:002014-05-23T16:52:27.785-04:00Good!
I trust you'll love DCC too! Its fantas...Good!<br /><br />I trust you'll love DCC too! Its fantastic; and I've been running a campaign that has a 16 year old and a 10 year old playing in the group. They love it.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-70065513243296940802014-05-23T16:36:07.544-04:002014-05-23T16:36:07.544-04:00As one who played basic D&D in the far past an...As one who played basic D&D in the far past and who wants to get his 13 year son started, I want you to know that these past few posts on 5e starter set has convinced me to preorder it. I looked at the stuff available when he first expressed interest (he and his friends have kinda written their own) I looked but neither PF or 4e seemed right. We got DCC though, and I look forward to playing it too. KingofElflandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01725335915535937373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-20957707728268611992014-05-23T16:31:55.629-04:002014-05-23T16:31:55.629-04:00@Marty, the clones started out as publishing resou...@Marty, the clones started out as publishing resources. Then there was a demand for presenting them as complete rulesets. For some editions like OD&D this was due to the unavalibility or expense of acquiring the original. For others, like OSRIC, the customers found them to be a superior reference.<br /><br />In both cases the demand was unexpected. Robert Conleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03863009007381185340noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-70479128991911923422014-05-23T15:47:00.026-04:002014-05-23T15:47:00.026-04:00Again, I hope that many of those still expressing ...Again, I hope that many of those still expressing criticisms of the Starter Set will end up being pleasantly surprised by the overall direction WoTC is going in; if they keep an open mind.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-15186211964207670482014-05-23T13:52:33.591-04:002014-05-23T13:52:33.591-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09130848174573386963noreply@blogger.com