tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post5876831969598011410..comments2024-03-09T19:23:22.482-03:00Comments on The RPGPundit: An Answer to Tom, About why Narrative Control is Insidious RPGPundithttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comBlogger127125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-61612063076827592402015-12-19T13:24:10.599-03:002015-12-19T13:24:10.599-03:00The unspoken corollary to “if you’re having fun, y...The unspoken corollary to “if you’re having fun, you’re doing it right” usually seems to be that “if you’re not doing it right, you’re not having fun.” You’re only having fun because D&D produced something like brain damage to make you only think you’re having fun.<br /><br />Doing it fun is better than doing it right is, whenever I have seen it used with examples, a very selfish definition of fun, because what it really means is that doing it fun now, for you, is better than doing it fun for everyone, in the long run as the world and the adventure are discovered. Doing it fun, now, will give you something to talk about all night. Doing it right will give the group something fun to have done for much longer.Jerryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12518234031222836203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-56828400263640372032015-12-19T12:11:56.245-03:002015-12-19T12:11:56.245-03:00Dude, there's nothing more 'absolutist'...Dude, there's nothing more 'absolutist' than a gang of pseudo-intellectual cunts telling all GMs: "You are NOT ALLOWED to say No to your players!"<br /><br />THEY are the absolutists. In what fucking universe is me saying "as Gm you are allowed to say yes, no, or roll the dice" somehow more restrictive to people than the other side saying "GMs should be neutered of all real power and forbidden from doing anything without player permission"??RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-78762392274333657862015-12-19T03:36:25.738-03:002015-12-19T03:36:25.738-03:00To quote The Dude: "Well, that's just, li...To quote The Dude: "Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."<br /><br />Every GM has his or her way of running the show, and they all have their reasons and opinions on the issue.<br /><br />The corollary which is often added to "yes or roll" is "if you're having fun, you're doing it right." So this is basically admitting that the principles expressed are informal and that there are exceptions to every rule. Doing it fun is more important than doing it right. It seems you're pretty concerned about doing it right.<br /><br />I see more than a little absolutism in your point of view, which, hey, if it works for you: great. But at the same time, it's the nuance of how someone pulls something off that is often the difference that makes the difference, and I think it's important to remember that.<br /><br />Formal correctness in terms of following principles might give someone a good feeling, but to me it's not as important as having fun at the table (this goes for GMs running their games as well as the players playing them)... and often adhering to principles is anathema to fun.<br />babayadahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01580323085087195779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-61366862416288424962015-12-18T17:26:07.107-03:002015-12-18T17:26:07.107-03:00Thanks. I tried to find a middle ground.
When ...Thanks. I tried to find a middle ground. <br /><br />When it comes to evolved "storygames" like FATE, I don't have a problem with RPG mechanics that give players a modicum of narrative control, limited by the GM's ultimate authority, of course.<br />Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-54347913936696568682015-12-18T12:04:06.941-03:002015-12-18T12:04:06.941-03:00I clearly see manipulation on your part here. You ...I clearly see manipulation on your part here. You misinterprete Marty's use of "fiction" as 'narrative with beginning and end' instead of just 'product of imagination'. When the error is pointed out to you and misunderstanding cleared, you stick to your interpretation and accuse others of changing their statement retroactively. It's not the first time, alas, that I see this pattern in conversations with you. Can't you really see how ridiculous you sound? Sure, you know better what people mean than these people themselves! Are you a mind-reading psychic, or what?Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-88424705411026702552015-12-17T19:21:29.984-03:002015-12-17T19:21:29.984-03:00But the rule doesn't. And motives behind the c...But the rule doesn't. And motives behind the conjuration have been listed in the thread I gave a link to below.Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-78169719149752020362015-12-17T18:33:20.136-03:002015-12-17T18:33:20.136-03:00Then why conjure a rule that invites such action? ...Then why conjure a rule that invites such action? <br />Personally I prefer to say yes AND roll dice. As i find using dice to determine degree of success way more interesting than so much math to obtain a simple yes or no. Saurondorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592286228203662073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-79783563945605099312015-12-17T16:58:28.802-03:002015-12-17T16:58:28.802-03:00Good blog, Venger. The place for Player Agency, b...Good blog, Venger. The place for Player Agency, btw, is in THEIR CHARACTERS. They should have agency over what their characters do, not be railroaded, not have the GM imposing anything on their characters (with reasonable exceptions like if the character is under mind-control or what have you), and their power to change the world around them is based on what the CHARACTER can or can't do. RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-56523989660544821422015-12-17T16:54:05.771-03:002015-12-17T16:54:05.771-03:00But now you're engaging in the standard Forgis...But now you're engaging in the standard Forgist manipulation of language. Because you want to just pretend you're using the word 'fiction' as "imaginary", but you're actually insinuating it means "story-making". So fuck you there.<br /><br />Obviously, an RPG setting is 'imaginary' in that it doesn't exist on this material plane other than as an idea.<br />But this doesn't change the fact that the REASON it exists isn't as a shallow, malleable backdrop to tell a story. It exists as virtual-reality framework to have fleshed-out characters explore and adventure in. <br /><br />Those are two very different things. One is reading (or drawing/writing) a comic book, the other is playing in the greatest MMORPG possible.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-2259235340089250432015-12-17T16:53:54.446-03:002015-12-17T16:53:54.446-03:00Separating the wheat from the chaff is a necessary...Separating the wheat from the chaff is a necessary component of initiation. Carry on, Brooser Bear!<br />Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-58647042039268001302015-12-17T16:52:54.108-03:002015-12-17T16:52:54.108-03:00Finally! A roleplaying game discussion worthy of ...Finally! A roleplaying game discussion worthy of blogging about: http://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2015/12/whos-in-charge-here.html<br /><br />Venger Satanishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04447932700800930510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-73920662895627328752015-12-17T16:46:21.423-03:002015-12-17T16:46:21.423-03:00Oh, I see. Just to help you a bit: http://www.merr...Oh, I see. Just to help you a bit: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fictionDmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-78156673961343019292015-12-17T16:34:31.634-03:002015-12-17T16:34:31.634-03:00An RPG world is not a fiction, because a fiction i...An RPG world is not a fiction, because a fiction is just a story that is told from beginning to end where what matters is the telling.<br />An RPG setting is a virtual world, a VR reality in our own Deep Consciousness. It isn't just a backdrop for a story, it has its own existence, it does not just exist for the purpose of creating some bad pseudo-artistry. RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-68763271561716937432015-12-17T16:31:13.383-03:002015-12-17T16:31:13.383-03:00Except they mostly don't. A tiny minority do. ...Except they mostly don't. A tiny minority do. The rest of the world plays D&D. I know you really really wish it wasn't so, but there it is.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-45716638319383467692015-12-17T16:29:42.939-03:002015-12-17T16:29:42.939-03:00BOTH break the reality of the setting. One just se...BOTH break the reality of the setting. One just seemingly does it in a very tiny way, the other in a very large way. But both end up proving the whole of reality an illusion, meaningless, and arbitrary.<br /><br />RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-9561568638723823962015-12-17T16:27:10.664-03:002015-12-17T16:27:10.664-03:00Not being allowed to say NO to your players is ALW...Not being allowed to say NO to your players is ALWAYS harmful to play.RPGPundithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17267330191433119298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-83442030335107652312015-12-17T16:26:59.340-03:002015-12-17T16:26:59.340-03:00You guys are confusing the Pundit by using the rea...You guys are confusing the Pundit by using the real meanings of words rather than fanciful interpretations that change depending on how the argument is challenged. No fair.Doc Savagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08783244633195233970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-46139377288792107942015-12-17T15:55:40.421-03:002015-12-17T15:55:40.421-03:00I only meant that "cleverly construct you que...I only meant that "cleverly construct you questions to address stuff that does not follow rigidly from GM's prep or previously established facts" does not look like a viable strategy to me. In particular, because things can be relegated to dice, and failed rolls in DitV often have lasting consequences. <br />Once again, you can hardly discuss a mechanic or a GMing technique out of its context.Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-3396266863273253202015-12-17T15:25:44.623-03:002015-12-17T15:25:44.623-03:00I haven't forgotten about the roll dice. I sim...I haven't forgotten about the roll dice. I simply omitted it since I've touched on it in other comments alongside the relevance of the book on botany. The part about it being current, not missing pages, etc. Do you want me to recap on dice? Maybe we can dive deeper into dice mechanics, probability curves and their relationship and impact alongside the application of this rule. Saurondorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592286228203662073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-23980827444492681832015-12-17T15:10:35.586-03:002015-12-17T15:10:35.586-03:00>as long as the question is cleverly constructe...>as long as the question is cleverly constructed to address something to which the GM lacks an answer beforehand. <br />Theoretically, yes, though you seem to forget 'or roll the dice' part. But so what?Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-40885382221587063902015-12-17T14:18:20.134-03:002015-12-17T14:18:20.134-03:00http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php?topic=26...http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forge/index.php?topic=26626.5<br />"Roll dice or say yes" is one piece of a GMing package; I don't think it stands well on its own. The other pieces are a compelling backstory, a situation at the beginning of play that the PCs *will certainly* throw out of balance, NPCs who seek out and respond actively to the PCs, PCs already entangled and ready for action, and just a general confidence on the GM's part that *no matter where the game goes*, it'll be good. Leave out any one of those other pieces, "roll dice or say yes" becomes weak advice. Leave out any two or more, it becomes maybe even harmful to play.Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-56950135868601746532015-12-17T14:16:55.041-03:002015-12-17T14:16:55.041-03:00Nope. It makes perfect sense *within the context* ...Nope. It makes perfect sense *within the context* of DitV, where it even helps against railroading. Here's the author's own words (and you may find the rest of the thread of interest too, it's short):Dmitry Gerasimovhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04870509986491401701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-79293604754799842502015-12-17T14:13:04.519-03:002015-12-17T14:13:04.519-03:00I've said this before but you know that consci...I've said this before but you know that consciously using a rule against its intent is a kind of rules lawyering, right? Just because some people might do that in a game (be that Dogs, D&D 3E, or whatever) doesn't mean the rule they abuse is de facto bad.Ynas Midgardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972628887096890642noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-685202147477093762015-12-17T13:46:23.746-03:002015-12-17T13:46:23.746-03:00Marty, Dmitry does a good job of giving an example...Marty, Dmitry does a good job of giving an example. He mentions 'The "say yes or roll the dice" principle explicitly covers only those situation when the GM does not have the answer beforehand. If you have prepped a town where there is no place for underground pit fights, you MUST say 'No' to the player, obviously.'<br /><br />Since there are clearly more situation in which the GM will not have an answer beforehand it is easy to see how just about any game that uses this rule will give the player what is wanted as long as the question is cleverly constructed to address something to which the GM lacks an answer beforehand. Saurondorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592286228203662073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2600947515654238699.post-89900173688585209592015-12-17T13:34:04.976-03:002015-12-17T13:34:04.976-03:00Dmitry, that makes no sense and only invites the G...Dmitry, that makes no sense and only invites the GM to over prepare and potentially railroad the adventure. It also means I can't make something on the fly just like I want it. Some GMs get really good at improvised adventures that show depth, it's a pity to see an adventure clipped by this rule. Saurondorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592286228203662073noreply@blogger.com