I'm not really around right now. Half the time I'm not on this planet just now; so it pisses me off to no end that I can't look at this bullshit of OBS' (that is to say, RPGnow and DrivethruRPG's) new policy of "there'll be a big button ANYONE CAN PUSH and instantly make a product go away by claiming it's offensive", and just use the old Polish saying of 'not my circus, not my monkeys'.
But of course, it is my circus. First, because a year ago when the "gamergate card game" thing happened and OBS bent over backwards for censorship advocates I predicted that this was only the start of a slide to something that would let the likes of Fred Hicks be the one who gets to choose for all of us what we're allowed to read or not in RPGs. With all the witch hunts and double standard hypocrisies and excuses for artsy games by politically sensitive indie authors (when they make a game about raping dead cabin boys, it's totally ok because they're the RIGHT people, and not filthy evil D&D gamers) that would imply.
And also, of course because on a personal note the people pushing for the "Big Red Ban Anything You Don't Like Button" are all the people who despise me.
So here's my message for Steve Wieck and the crowd at OBS:
Hi +Steve Wieck !
Here's the thing: My games have neither rape nor anything else vile in them. They're not misogynist or homophobic (one of them has the first heroically depicted transgender character on the cover of an RPG rulebook ever). But there's a gang of complete shitheads who despise me because I disagree with them about RPGs and have thwarted and proven my way better than theirs each and every time.
Just how long do you think it will be before they swarm your "report" button to get every single thing I've ever written blackballed from your site thanks to your shitty new policy? You claim you'll reinstate it if nothing is really offensive, but how long will that take? If they strategically do it when there's some sale period or something like that, who makes up for my lost sales? How will your "Censorship first, ask questions later" policy protect people from harassers out to use your ill conceived bit of mental diarrhoea to attack people they don't like? I urge you to answer, and quickly, because your answer or lack thereof will determine my next move.
You have 18 hours to provide an answer to my satisfaction before I assume you have no intention to do so.
RPGPundit
Currently Smoking: Dunhill Shell Diplomat & Solani Aged Burley Flake
I cannot believe that anyone with any brains would do this. There is already a mechanism in place that works well: if I find something offensive, I DON'T BUY IT! But that, of course, leaves other people able to make up their minds and denies me the chance to decide for them.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, if something is truly wrong, then the process should be to review the product before offering it for sale. If it passes muster, then if someone complains at least OBS (or whoever) has an idea whether that product might be controversial or whether the complaint is specific to that one person. Giving any sorehead on the planet the power to take something off sale is the worst idea I have ever heard.
Now, if the button meant that the product would not show up on that one person's computer--something totally possible with web technology--that would be okay. I'm sure nobody would mind it. I would be surprised that this is not what they are contemplating, but nothing really surprises me any more.
Everything will offend someone eventually. Which means Drive-Thru and the others will end up with nothing to sell except for that one My-Little-Brony game that no one knows yet how to translate to see if it is offensive or not.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should click the red button for every product.
ReplyDeleteI was just going to say.
DeleteWhen a moronic policy like this is implemented, abuse by crying wolf on every single product till the reverse their policy.
Target the Indie Story games first so they can get a taste of their own medicine.
I am so piss off right now I am tempted to do just that to Evil Hat since they deserve it. Problem is do I want to stoop down to Evil Hat level?
DeleteMaybe we should click the red button for every product.
ReplyDeleteMaybe we should click the red button for every product.
ReplyDeleteJust wait. give him a chance to think if this is really what he wants to do. If it is, or he chooses not to answer, I'll tell you the three things I think we all will need to do to fix this.
ReplyDeleteWe are aware that the report feature will see many abuse attempts which is why it is not a trivial system for us to code and deploy.
ReplyDeleteIt would be counter-productive for me to publicly discuss the aspects of the system we are considering to mitigate such abuse.
I am all ears though for recommendations for making the system more abuse-resistant.
And we know whatever system we launch with won't have all of the features we'd like and that the reporting mechanism's abuse prevention measures will likely have to evolve in an inevitable cat-and-mouse game with people who seek to abuse it.
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Deleteerggg...i give up, blogger wins this round, i'm not going to post it 3 times...
DeleteThen let's talk about this idea privately. I've sent you a message on G+, I await your response.
DeleteYou can make it more abuse resistant by only having the option open to people who have bought and downloaded the material.
ReplyDeleteNow some stuff will be obvious, like the 2 you've had to deal with in the last year, but you're gonna get shed-loads of trivial reports from people with good intentions, people with axes to grind, people who dislike 1 paragraph in a 300 page book posted online by the oblivious, the scheming, or the shit-stirring- the whole lot, but you'll cut down on a lot of the extraneous reports if the option is only there for buyers.
The title alone for this one was always going to garner negative attention, and i can't believe it was produced without that knowledge, which is in itself an act of shit-stirring IMO. But to help you in not finding yourself having to defend largely harmless material by the likes of Monte Cook or Paizo (which have both been targeted over the last couple of years), you're either going to have to suffer through rejecting swaths of reports and those who reported it questioning your decision all over social media or you limit the report to those people who actually know what the product contains 9ie have bought it through you)
My 2 cents
This is a better approach but the review will only stay up if the user doesn't ask for a refund / return the product. that would make it resistant to abuse. It's still work that has to be paid for unless someone wants to volunteer their time to help.
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ReplyDeleteI can see both sides of this debate, but I gotta say I'd err on the side of not censoring anything automatically.
ReplyDeleteDon't take a flagged product down automatically, Mr. Wieck, accumulate a certain threshold of flags and then review the product. I'd make the threshold high, but that's not my business.
I can see both sides of this debate, but I gotta say I'd err on the side of not censoring anything automatically.
ReplyDeleteDon't take a flagged product down automatically, Mr. Wieck, accumulate a certain threshold of flags and then review the product. I'd make the threshold high, but that's not my business.
How much you want to bet that as soon as a book made, or publish by those on the SJW hit list will be the first to get flagged? I can already see OBS being Evil Hat's bitch and taking PDFs down and James of LotFP shutting down shop.
ReplyDeleteAfter spending 12 hours arguing my views on this very topic. I realizes that expressing my concerns and grievances on this topic. Then with the aid of a few others, whom I noticed were more solution oriented and already speaking with Mr. Wiek, I realized the error of my approach.
ReplyDeleteIt was in no way different than the those, whose actions many of us stand in opposition of instigated this reaction from the companies in the first place. And I have in no measure near the sway or influence that some of the people pushing for this change.
What I needed to do was find a peaceable solution to the current problem. To acknowledge that they have already affected change, and instead work to offer a solution that befits not only the interest of those responsible for provoking the change, but the publisher and consumer as well.
I have written a litter posted publicly on my facebook wall for anyone interested in joining me in letting OSB know we understand something has to be done, and that we would agree with this course of action. Read if over, change it, copy and paste it, write your own completely different idea. But, we're past the point of putting a stop to the change, we now have to let our voices be known on the type of change we will accept.
https://www.facebook.com/gmskitz/posts/1459336847707792
This isn't the time for comrpomising or appeasement policy. This is the time to start a solidarity movement that says "NOT ONE product from our movement will be banned or we ALL walk'.
DeleteI"m sorry to see that you feel that way. I can't say that I disagree with a certain level of indignation, but, I also can't say that applying pressure to someone who is already being pressured and probably just wants to save their business is best course of action.
DeleteI also suspect that that majority of people will still flock to the number one source of content on the internet. The only people I see walking, because OBS has been bullied into implementing a reporting system are publishers of controversial material. Possibly a handful of die-hard fans of those publishers.
There are three types of individuals in play with this issue. Those who feel a moral obligation to take as stance against the content and those who feel the need to stand against the censorship of what is essentially an art form are the two groups actively at odds. The third group don't care either way, it's not their problem, they want to get content from DTRPG and the like.
And seeing as how I haven't seen very many blogs outside the original outcry that started this whole mess, present company excluded of course. I have the feeling the group standing up against the censorship is the minority.
I personally am a member of the third apathetic group. I seen the book and laughed thought "wow that's tacky" and moved along. Possibly like the majority of others out there did.
Then a group individuals and businesses began responding, and boy did they respond. Publicly at that. It has been brought to my attention that this isn't the first public controversy that OBS has had to deal with. It was before my time but I heard "Gamergate" was fairly scandalous too and OBS had to take a PR hit for that as well.
DeleteNow lets talk dollars for dollars. If you were the one who owned OBS and you realized that a substantial portion of your clientele, both publishers and consumers, were up in arms over a book that pushes the boundaries of what is considered socially acceptable, and knew you were about to take a financial hit. Would you not give into the pressure in order for the sake of damage control?
Now let me ask you this. This movement that you're talking about are they going to be of substantial numbers to make Mr. Wieck think "Oh hell, this could be even more damaging than letting that book stay"? Or now that there's pressure on him from from two opposing faction is he going to have to choose the lesser of two evils? And if so, which group would you guess that is?
Let me ask another question, The publishers that are in your movement, are they likely to stay in business if they 'walk' too? If your livelihood depends on your ability to sell content and the OBS group is the best outlet on the internet to do so, wouldn't it be sound business to keep your product listed there? How many of those publishers in this movement have the capability to even soften the losses by selling the books in their own store site?
How many consumers does this movement have that is honestly going to boycott the OBS family of sites? How many instead of going out find great content ready to use is going to be satisfied with going back making their own gaming content? Granted I'm sure many of us still do that even if we are shopping at OBS. But, it's nice to reduce that work load isn't it?
That stuff doesn't matter thought, you're committed, you've put together a movement, you ran your blog posts about the injustices that's befallen you, and you've gotten the word out on social media and other bloggers have taken up the cause. I dare say it's time to tighten the screws to Mr. Wieck and the OBS. I say we puff up, get into his face, and let him know we are ready and willing to bully harder than that other group ever could have.
The fact is, it's too later for pressure. Exactly as it was said to me. The change, not will happen, "has" happened. OBS knew something had to had to be done and has already been pressured into doing it.
If you honestly think you are going to be able to apply enough pressure to now reverse what has already been done and face the heat for what prompted him to take that action in the first place then by all means stay the course.
Otherwise, not using your voice to guide that change for the benefit of the community is a waste shame, and continue this movement is a fools errand.
Let me put it to you this way: is it "dollars to donuts" good business sense to piss off a large group of people who are willing organize and set up a rival company when you currently have a monopoly?
ReplyDeleteEspecially since, if you have a policy of free speech, those people will stay loyal, while if you have even the most draconian censorship policy imaginable the Outrage Brigade will keep demanding more and more control anyways, and will accuse you of being "complicit" and "part of the problem" the second you judge that a book they want banned isn't worthy of banning?
Is it worth it when people will organize to sabotage and break your 'reporting' process to prove the wrongness of it?
Is it worth it when you will get a Solidarity Coalition of dozens of small and medium publishers who will vow to walk as soon as any one of their books is censored?
Let's say you, as the client, could keep going to rpgnow, knowing that a ton of the hottest gaming titles (OSR and lots of other brands) will NOT be there? If you won't be able to buy them there, but WILL be able to buy everything you want at a different PDF vendor that will be set up as OBS' direct competitor?
Would you, as a consumer, prefer to have someone like Fred Hicks decide for you what list of product you are or are not allowed to choose from? Or would you rather get a chance to see ALL the products and then decide for yourself what you would like to buy?
Allow me to begin by glazing donuts. First it’s not a monopoly. They are already in competition with the likes Amazon and a vast number of book sellers on the web. In truth if I were make a comparison of their business practice and that a “brick and mortar” business I would say they emulate a consignment shop. They aren’t buying products for you, simply providing a place for you to sell your own, and charging a portion of the profits. Not using their service as more than a consumer myself I would have to rely on someone else to confirm that for me. However, their niche is in role playing content which makes them the largest specialized book source. Or at least I would like to think we see eye to eye on that point.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, even in that circumstance would I be willing to piss off a large faction of people. This is something I would have to have a bit more information in. How large is this group? How much revenue comes from this group? How does those numbers compare to the group that is already pissed off at me? Because if the facts are that I have two groups of people, two portions of my revenue stream threatening me with the same thing. The fact is one group is smaller and do less damage than my wallet than the other.
So how does this movement stack up? There may be no real reason at all to argue with me than to stir things up like Alex Jones on You Tube if your movement is big enough to make threats and ultimatums and scare him more than the other group. I thought I covered that point in my last post, due to your response I thought I’d try again.
Competition? If my company was as established, had played as much of a role in the success of the companies that use my service, that I was able and compelled to do so successfully on other sites I would have no problem accepting that I would have to compete with a new upstart website. Let’s be honest, two of his sites are nearly identical compete with each other how are we to know he isn’t hoping for it.
On the topic of free speech policies. Are you familiar with OneBlogShelf?
http://oneblogshelf.blogspot.com/2015/09/offensive-content-policy.html
I’ve been under the impression you were, but somewhere you seem to have misinterpreted something that was said or gotten your information from another location. Do not confuse the lack of a policy with a “Policy of Free Speech”. I know that in the end they can have the same outcome. However they are fundamentally wrong. A policy of free speech would indicate that you are welcome to post anything you are inspired to write, and we will stand behind that right on the grounds of it being your right to say it. Which I’m all for, I think it would be very commendable to have an open platform. The ‘policy’ for OBS has been an absent policy. They never created a policy stating what was or wasn’t acceptable community content standards. It isn’t like he lied to anyone saying “Hey guys this is a place you can publish anything you want” the whole time “Meh, you’re grown-ups. You know right from wrong?”.
ReplyDeleteWe don’t have to say “Me, the client”, I am the client, it has been my stances since before I ever knew your blog existed and though it would be a complete waste of time to come and offer my suggestion here. You exactly right in appraising my wishes though. Which are exactly that, the right to choose the content made available to me without the influence of an individual’s or even the masses moral compass. Something you might have realized if you followed the link on my original post to an open letter I attempted to share here. And if you did follow that link and gave it more than a cursory hot-headed glance through whilst rolling your eyes thinking that the author (me) is some sort of "bleeding heart we don't need to qualm crybaby", you would have seen that it address many of the issue you have been turning red in the face over since that original post.
Additionally instead of arguing with me you might have realized that it was completely options to edit and amend as you saw fit. It is the steps towards a solution, which you won’t find even if you were to build a couch potato army and march the doors of the OBS building yourself.
He’s already bullied, he’s already lost money, there are already companies that didn’t chose to bully or threaten him, they simply pulled their products off of the line put them into their own stores and sent out e-mails to the customers.
That blog that I linked to earlier, which I hoped you are familiar with, is dated September 1st. That was the decision he made in response to the other group pressuring him the day before you created this blog post.
It’s too late, the decision is made. You want to do some good for this community? Stop trying to be the next problem that invokes change for this community and help me get people voice their opinions of what changes they will accept. You want to threaten him then that’s up to and your readers.
Let me put it to you this way: is it "dollars to donuts" good business sense to piss off a large group of people who are willing organize and set up a rival company when you currently have a monopoly?
ReplyDeleteEspecially since, if you have a policy of free speech, those people will stay loyal, while if you have even the most draconian censorship policy imaginable the Outrage Brigade will keep demanding more and more control anyways, and will accuse you of being "complicit" and "part of the problem" the second you judge that a book they want banned isn't worthy of banning?
Is it worth it when people will organize to sabotage and break your 'reporting' process to prove the wrongness of it?
Is it worth it when you will get a Solidarity Coalition of dozens of small and medium publishers who will vow to walk as soon as any one of their books is censored?
Let's say you, as the client, could keep going to rpgnow, knowing that a ton of the hottest gaming titles (OSR and lots of other brands) will NOT be there? If you won't be able to buy them there, but WILL be able to buy everything you want at a different PDF vendor that will be set up as OBS' direct competitor?
Would you, as a consumer, prefer to have someone like Fred Hicks decide for you what list of product you are or are not allowed to choose from? Or would you rather get a chance to see ALL the products and then decide for yourself what you would like to buy?
Did you actually just copy and paste what you had said in your previous post? Is this a glitch or something?
Delete