Time for a moment of grognard sobriety.
There’s no question that OSR fans can sometimes tend toward a certain kind of fanaticism; and yet it's a very specific kind of fanaticism. It seems that the movement has settled on certain sacred cows that bring out the sense of nostalgia, be they good or bad.
Let me explain what I’m talking about when I mean that its very specific: If you go on an old-school sort of forum, and say that you think 1e’s wrestling rules suck ass, or that the psionics system is crap, you’re not going to get any kind of serious objections, some may even agree with you.
Now, on the other hand, if you think its bad that there are creatures that do level-drain attacks, you’re asking for a fight.
But let’s think about this: is there anyone who actually LIKES level-draining no-save monsters? Really? I think no one really likes these. It's stupid. It's not a clever mechanic, the kind of risk it creates is not an exciting in-game risk (like poison, or attribute drain, etc), but rather something that steals away your accomplishments. Its a hassle for GMs too, to put these monsters in the right amounts, knowing that if things go badly one of them can seriously disrupt your campaign… or end up doing fuck all.
It's why I made sure that in my Arrows of Indra old-school RPG, I had monsters that could screw you up in all kinds of ways: poison, attribute drains, penalties, permanent insanity, etc; but no level-drain.
The point is, people hold on to this out of nothing more than the fact that it's one of the big things that they feel differentiate Old-school from later versions of D&D; but it's not, except in the most shallow and superficial sense. Take away level-draining Wraiths from an old-school game and it's still an Old-school game.
The summing up of this rant?
First: that not everything about old-school D&D is worth defending, as much as I love the package as a whole.
Second: that there’s no value in nostalgia for its own sake.
RPGPundit
(Originally posted November 22, 2012)
So what you're really saying is you punk out when confronted with the possibility of serious danger...kidding, but I bet somebody will try defending these level drains the same way they defend D&D's lousy armor system, hit points, and other combat abstractions that work better for miniature war games. Because D&D is old, therefore it's perfect.
ReplyDeleteThere's far better ways that are far less of a hassle to create serious danger for PCs than level-drain.
DeleteAgreed. Level draining is simply punitive, and adds zero value to the game. Ability score drain, on the other hand, is a rock solid mechanic, providing you give players a saving throw.
DeleteI had changed LD as far back as the pre-D&D release in 1973 and during the playt-tests. There were no sacred cows for me. For Gary? Well, he loved the danger/hassle angle. Too linear for my tastes then and now.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing this, Rob! This is one of the things that gets me sometimes about the OSR. They are far more (nostalgically) venerating of the 'sacred cows' than any of us who actually lived in the old-school period ever were. In my recollection, at least, the cool thing was that anything was up for grabs.
DeleteThanks Rob for reminding everyone what old school really is and that you (and Dave Arneson) stayed true to the original concept.
DeleteThank you to the RPGPundit for pointing out the difference between OSR (Old School Roleplaying)and The OSR (The Old School Renaissance/Revival).
I'm not going to defend this because of nostalgia but ... as far as I recall the purpose of level training monsters in our campaigns of the late seventies was to limit characters from gaining too high levels for the gamemaster's world. So when we got to a certain level, out came the wraiths. So it wasn't for danger but rather it was a mechanic that kept the party within the level bounds at the GM wanted. I can't swear to it because it was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure that was why.
ReplyDeleteTraining = Draining :p
DeleteOk, but again, you have to then admit that was an absolutely godawful and stupid idea. It's a really bad way to handle it. Today we have better ways to avoid extreme power inflation.
DeleteWell it did keep us terrified of wraiths. Frankly I don't think it's all that terrible a mechanic. I don't find myself reviled by it. It's a horror. Some horrors are worse than others. This one is pretty high up on the scale. I see it as another form of damage. One that says "Consequences". I don't typically throw wraiths around, but where they lurk there's usually some horror related. Wraiths are dread evil. The mechanic says "Do not mess with this - there will be consequences". I'm ok with that, both as a player and a GM. If my 2ND level cleric sees a wraith, his hair will stand up on end and he will bolt as fast as his little feet can carry him. That should be 'Alert' enough for the rest of the party. Oh my cleric is a patriarch? Ok, he will ptoceed with extreme caution. Yeah, I think I'm ok with level stealing wraiths. My advice to GMs would be "WARNING! USE SPARINGLY". But not to abolish the damn things. Maybe it's just me.
DeleteOn the other hand wraiths do not belong on a random encounters chart at all. That i'd agree with, fo shizzle.
As a DM (started DMing in '79 so yah, old school, but a true grognard as was a wargamer first) always hated level drain because it brought combats to a screeching halt, since you often had to recalculate everything, hp, spells, etc. An immense pain in the ass. I just had it drain xp, which believe me put enough fear into the players. You didn't lose any abilities but you got set back on level progression.
ReplyDeleteYes, as a GM that is one of my biggest issues with level-drain mechanics from a practical perspective. From a bigger ideological perspective, it's that it makes everyone move out of thinking in terms of being there in the world and start thinking more in terms of mechanics.
DeleteI tend to fall in line with those who speculate that level-drain was added to the game as a means of putting the fear of God into players—so that the players would be just as scared of ghosts as their characters ought to be. As a mechanic, it certainly works on that count—even if it is overly onerous and sadistic.
ReplyDeleteSo any alternative, in my opinion, must at least try and replicate the terror aspect. I've found that (e.g.) Constitution drain doesn't quite cut the mustard. That's just the same as making sure everyone is just three or four hits away from death when fighting undead, regardless of their level. It actually makes things more predictable, ergo less tense.
My own solution is to have the undead life-drain by disabling maximum HPs. Wights cause 2d4 damage, wraiths 2d6, spectres 2d8, and vampires 2d10; and a hit both heals the undead and damages the character's current and maximum hp, with the maximum hp taking weeks rather than days to heal up (like Frodo at Rivendell). And anyone whose max hp is ever dropped to 0 (no negative hit points in this situation, 0 *max* hp is 0 and dead) has had their soul sucked out and consumed therefore cannot be raised (but a twisted shadow of the character will inevitably come back as the undead).
In my experience, this is perfectly tense: players are hesitant to engage undead, even with a cleric; and a random encounter with a lone wraith might deal one hit that drains a character of a few hp that can't be healed that adventure, but it won't generally force an immediate retreat from the dungeon so much as just put everybody on their toes.
That would be one possibility for a better solution, yes.
Delete