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Friday 22 September 2017

My Interview with Greg Gorgonmilk About the Ctrl-Left Attempt to Subvert the OSR

So, some of you may have heard by now that the Ctrl-Left has hounded out another prominent member of the OSR: Greg Gorgonmilk.  Greg had a popular OSR blog and was a prominent G+ gaming poster.  But he was also known for posting against political-correctness (sorry for using such an old-fashioned term there for what is actually "SJW propaganda shit"; but Greg's an old-fashioned guy) and in favor of free speech.

The moment he was critically assaulted on multiple social media platforms came, however, when he decided to speak against political violence.  For context, it had to do with something that happened in Seattle this week, where a man with a nazi armband  was spotted wandering around the Seattle transit by someone who posted a picture online. Antifa immediately sprang into action searching for the guy all over the downtown of that city, and when they found him one of them punched him unconscious.  The claim is that he was shouting racist insults at people and that he hurled a banana at a black man; none of that somehow ended up on film even though the punch did (so people were clearly filming; why didn't they film the guy doing the threatening things they claim he was?).  But in any case, it's sort of irrelevant; the core of the story is the guy was a visible Nazi, and Antifa hunted him down and beat him unconscious (admittedly, with a single punch; it looks like Antifa finally found someone with upper arm strength! Or a target with a very weak jaw).

On a post about this incident on Google+, Greg suggested that it was a bad thing to have searched for, hunted, and punched the guy with the Nazi armband. For that, he suffered a massive campaign of harassment, doxxing threats, intimidation against his friends, etc. until he decided to vanish from the hobby.

It should be shocking, but in this day and age a significant part of this hobby seems to believe this is perfectly OK, because some totalitarian fucks decided to claim that objecting to political violence or defending freedom of expression means YOU are a Nazi, and after that literally anything can be done to you. That's the world we live in today.

So in any case, Greg Gorgonmilk got in touch with me after I defended him on G+, and answered a few questions for me. Along the way, he confirmed something I had been hearing from a few people on G+ about a secret group (like a literal one, on G+ or Facebook) that was composed of left-wing OSR people who were targeting Greg.

P: So, are you a nazi?

Gorgonmilk: First let me say that I don't fit into the Right/Left political dichotomy. I'm one of those lingering Centrists. I might even be a Diagonal because I choose to associate with people from both ends, including Libertarians. The takeaway here is that I do not have extreme political beliefs/values. No, I'm not a nazi.

P: Second question: why are you such a fucking pussy? You don't run and hide from the Ctrl-Left Swine-Totalitarians, that's how they win.

Gorgonmilk: I have killed off the Gorgonmilk identity publicly because I am involved in a publishing venture. I have seen the way these Far Left people operate, and I know it would only be a matter of time before my partner is targeted. He's not nearly as "controversial" as me, and I would be pissed to see all the work we have done together repudiated as the work of "white supremacists". If I am a white supremacist, then I am failing at it badly in the real world.

P: That is understandable, and I acknowledge that some people have it harder than others to stand up to Ctrl-Left persecution because of just how dirty they fight, and how they go after friends and family and try to destroy your career in and out of the RPG field. It's why I've made a point of having jobs I know I won't be virtue-signal-fired from and friends who know just what I think and write. But not everyone can have that luxury.
But you have not really left the OSR is what you're saying? You will be coming back, just in another identity?

Gorgonmilk: Yeah that's the plan. Somewhat older and slightly wiser.

P: Ok. So I've heard that there was more behind this story than just what the public got to see. Namely, that there was a connection between the dogpiling and harassment you were the target of, and a secret group calling themselves the Mongrel Banquet Club. Want to explain that?

Gorgonmilk: I was invited to the Mongrel Banquet Club under the pretense that it was a no-holds-barred, post whatever filth you like kind of place. It was started by Beloch Shrike, btw, but nearly everyone there is a moderator. I was chastised for posting an image by Masamune Shirow that showed a semi-naked woman being groped above the waist by demon monsters. I thought it was amusing, but I was told that I could potentially trigger many people there. My response to this was very sarcastic, but I capitulated and took it down. The real salt in their eyes is the fact that I refused to be "taken aside" and talked down to by the group's "moral authorities" (wtf there are pictures of actual poop there!) So even though I did as asked I apparently ruffled their feathers by not toeing the lines of their ideology.

P: So how did this connect to the whole Seattle-Nazi-Punch thing?

Gorgonmilk: Fast forward to me making a post stating that I didn't agree with Antifa's violent tactics. Gus L chimed into that thread to call me a scumbag-racist-misogynist, claiming that I am anti-BLM (I have no fucking idea what he's talking about -- I have never talked about BLM) and so _clearly_ I am a white supremacist. Gus L is also a member of the Mongrel group btw. My position throughout that thread never changed, which I think was very frustrating to the social justice crowd because it painted them in a bad light.

P: And that's when a group of them escalated into larger attacks?

Gorgonmilk:  Their whole schtick is that they are unerringly fighting for goodness, as you realize, so my pointing out that they were supporting assholes was serious cognitive dissonance. The final nail in the coffin was supplied by Courtney Campbell of Hack & Slash, who reiterated the whole "Gorgonmilk is Nazi-Sympathizer because he is showing sympathy for a man with a swastika on his arm." 

P: So what was your exact position on the Nazi-armband guy though?

Gorgonmilk: My position on the Nazi guy was that he's an idiot and he was looking for trouble, but he also has the right to free speech. The Far Left only values free speech when the speech is something it wants to hear.

P: So are most of these "Mongrels" actual OSR people, or are they non-OSR gamers in the majority?

Gorgonmilk:  Everyone in the Mongrel group are OSR to my knowledge.

P: Beloch, who you mentioned and who outed himself as one of the founders of the Mongrels claimed to me that the club was just for fun and games, a place where people posted politically incorrect comedy. This immediately raised my doubts; because if you're trying to convince me that a secret Leftist infiltration group organizing attacks against OSR people they politically despise is really something else, you might want to try a different cover than "politically incorrect comedy group". That's as credible as Nazis trying to disguise themselves as a Yiddish Klezmer band.
So would you say that Beloch is being honest? Or are the Mongrels more about political virtue signalling or the like? Have they talked about going after people or done any other sort of conspiring, especially about people who aren't on the group? Is there an agenda to try to take out (by mockery or whatever else) prominent OSR people who don't follow the leftist agenda?

Gorgonmilk: I think they were having fun amongst each other, but their idea of politically incorrect is vastly different than mine. I was born in '78. We traded dead baby jokes when I was in high school. None of my friends then or now would blink at the Shirow image I posted. I think they're a bunch of virtue-signalling pussies who _think_ they're edgy honestly.

P: There were different tiers to the group though, wasn't there? And from what I understand you were intentionally excluded from the inner circle (it sounds to me like they brought you into it by complete mistake in the first place anyhow), so there was clearly another level of conversation going on there that you weren't privy to.

Gorgonmilk: I was not allowed into any private convos they were having.

P: Do you think there was a conscious and intentional effort to control or take down the OSR and specifically to try to 'take down' RPG authors who don't follow their lead and make the OSR not good and not fun?  Or is it just unconscious? And are there any Extra Special Dogfuckers we should all be looking out for?

Gorgonmilk: I don't think it's a conscious effort, no. Not yet anyway. Give it a few years. I think I was a target because I stuck out like a sore thumb. I had friends on the Left and on the Right and they didn't like that. I didn't censor my comments or tailor them to people who believe in triggers and safe spaces. I openly mocked Taylor Swift and insinuated that she was a giant whore! So while there was not likely a conspiracy, I was pushing all their buttons. I don't think Courtney Campbell is even in the Mongrel group -- he's just a lone douche who shares their ideology. Really my most vocal detractors are the ones I've already mentioned. The rest of them did not attack me, but neither did they come forward to say, "Hey, I've known this guy for years and he's always treated me fairly."

P: Well, I was targeted, already years ago. But the difference is that I thought the OSR was free of that kind of shit, and now you're telling me almost everyone in this secret group that attacks OSR-writers is from the OSR itself. That suggests we're a lot worse off in the OSR than we'd thought. 
The ones who didn't come forward, whether it was out of agreement or fear, are still a part of the problem. What do you think we can do to stop this bullshit? 

Gorgonmilk: Man, I am open to suggestions. I've been watching what's been going on with Marvel Comics for a few months now. There are two conservative comic critics on YouTube (Diversity & Comics and Nerkish) who have been doing a fantastic job of critiquing the shitty writing that Marvel's current SJW staff has been turning in. Just mercilessly breaking down what utter bullshit Marvel has become. Marvel staff has doxxed one of them and attempted to contact his workplace in order to make trouble for him (they had the wrong place). On Twitter Marvel staffers claim harassment and are believed despite no evidence being brought forward. 

I believe strongly in everybody's Constitutional rights. Everybody should be treated fairly. Bigotry is fucking awful. But social justice has moved beyond these values. It is becoming the ascendant social concern. When it starts showing signs of weakness is when it should be taken down and exposed for the absurdity that it has become. Right now people are working from incomplete definitions of what these people stand for. Liberals from the 90s who are 40+ now LOVE the term "social justice" because it means something entirely different to them than what it has become. It's no longer about equality. It's about controlling the content. And for us that love to play around in the entertainment-hobbyist field that is a dire concern. As an individual and a creator I want my autonomy. Unless I'm making I LOVE HITLER THE RPG, I don't want to be called a fucking white supremacist because these idiots don't like what I have to say.

P: But you will be. They're going to do it anyways. No level of appeasement will placate them. So they must be fought. Agreed?

Gorgonmilk: It has to be done in a savvy manner. We're talking about fighting professional victims. Don't even get me started on the white knighting, man.

P: In my experience, the method that works is not being "savvy". It's being intentionally outrageous. It's worked for me. Whereas everyone I've seen who's tried being 'subtle' or acting like the 'better person' or bullshit like that has ended up being overwhelmed anyways. As soon as you buy into their threat, even if you're still trying to oppose their argument, you've accepted their premise (that there's something wrong with what you're saying), and you lose.  You don't win by saying "I think that we have to consider in feminism the value of men and how you might lose some men and women by making statements that are intentionally aggressive about exterminating all white males". You win by saying "Fuck you, Feminism is Cancer".  And then, if they express outrage, you respond by calling some male feminist a little bitch. That's how you win. Because they have only one weapon in their arsenal: the threat of accusing you of some kind of thought crime. If you reject the entire notion that thought crimes exist, if you reject the whole argument that you somehow should not be allowed to offend them, then sooner or later they lose.  That, and you mock them, relentlessly and ruthlessly. Point out how ridiculous they are. Point out the ironies of a fat piece of shit like Bruce Baugh lecturing us on how the evils of capitalism will ruin our environment, while he ruined Gamma World. Point out the ludicrousness of Tracey Hurley claiming that Aleena the Cleric, dressed head to toe in armor, is suggestive with a 'come hither look' and part of "rape culture", and then remind people she didn't know what a tabard was.  Fuck subtlety.

Gorgonmilk: While I totally agree with your sentiments here, it's just more flame wars that go nowhere. Like I would have loved to call Courtney a giant fucking cunt who is purposely contorting what I'm saying -- which is the truth -- it goes nowhere. He looks good for calling me out and making me lose my temper. These battles are being fought throughout fandoms. Look at Gamer Gate. People who have bought into the "reality" of things like triggers, safe spaces, rape culture, toxic masculinity -- none of them will looks stupid for championing their causes because they're part of the culturally ascendant movement right now. Conservatives have been demonized. What would really damage them is proof that they're giant cunts. I think you were onto at the end of that last message -- showing them to be ignorant. That's easier in a fandom like Marvel where the writers have no fucking clue about the superhero genre. More difficult in the OSR where everyone is pretty keyed in to the major tropes.

P: Ok. I don't agree; and I think that explains the difference of why you've decided to move into a new identity (good luck with that) rather than fight it out.  You say "look at Gamer Gate": Gamer Gate got Donald Trump elected. Pushing the Ctrl-Left to the increasing hysterics and outrage is the best way to make them ridiculous and expose their true agenda; which will cause them to lose the people. Because my true agenda is for everyone to get to do whatever the fuck they like and be free. Their agenda is to criminalize anything they don't like, destroy western civilization and democracy, and control everything about EVERYONE'S life. Force them to call normal people "deplorable", and they lose. 
So before I get to my publishing deadline, any final thoughts?

Gorgonmilk: But isn't that exactly what happened to me? They called me deplorable in so many words. And from what I understand some people came to my defense and defended my position, but what do I have to gain by jumping back into that fray? Trump got elected and the SJW element is more lively than ever.

To which I say, they're more lively because they're losing. And the more 'lively' they become, the more they'll lose. And you don't yet know how much you have to gain.

But thank you very much, Greg, for your time!

So here's my final thoughts:

As someone with relatives who died in Nazi death camps I have to admit I really don't have a problem with actual nazis being punched. Actual REAL nazis. And if you go around wearing a swastika armband, you're almost certainly a REAL Nazi.

You know how you can tell if someone is a real Nazi?  Ask them "Are you a nazi?"
They'll say yes.

Nazis aren't embarrassed of their beliefs. They want to show them off. They'll tell you. Shit, they can't fucking shut up about it.

The problem is, we have people attacking, going after, trying to physically or economically or socially destroy people THEY JUST DECLARE are Nazis who obviously aren't Nazis.

So the dude who got beaten for wearing a swastika? As much as I don't believe in the abstract sense in political violence and as much as I believe in the right to even the most odious hate speech, I can't quite muster up a fuck to give about him.

But now, we just had a noted OSR writer get *hounded out of the hobby* with accusations of nazism, doxxing threats, vicious harassment, physically threatened, being called a white supremacist because he supported his free speech.

THAT is the problem. The problem is the Left also doesn't give a fuck about Nazis. It's using that word, and diluting it into eventual tragic meaninglessness in the process, to excuse the most abominable and previously unthinkable Maoist-Youth or even Khmer-Rouge style attacks on people it KNOWS are not nazis but that just do not agree with their agenda and represent a threat to them.

So when you talk to me about how Nazi dickwad on the subway is bad, given that we all know he's bad, all I hear is "we should let a tiny group of Ctrl-Left psychopaths who despise gaming and our entire civilization purge this hobby of anyone to the right of Antifa, with violence if necessary. Because I mean, they're nazis too right? Everyone who disagrees with my world view the slightest little bit is a Nazi and now that means I can do _anything I want_ to them!! Hooray!"

Fuck that. And fuck anyone who thinks they'll be able to achieve a political purge of the OSR. This isn't Storygames, no one is going to lick your pussy in awe because you threaten to call us 'racists'. We all know you already despise us and nothing we do or say will make you not despise us, because it's not about anything we've ever said or done. It's about the fact we are here at all. You don't want to change us, you want us eliminated because we're in the way of your deluded fantasy of how a world without Regular RPGs, regular video games, regular comics, regular sci-fi shows, and regular fun in general will somehow be a post-Western utopia and not an utter totalitarian shithole.

So we're not just not going to listen to you. We're going to promise to do everything we possibly can to be even MORE offensive to you. To make you even more hysterical. To make it clear that you don't get to decide what happens, we do. Because fuck you, that's why. YOU are the fascists I'm actually worried about stopping, not pathetic asshole with the armband. YOU are the ones who are the real and present danger, and who must be taken down. And you will be.


Currently Smoking: Lorenzetti Oversize + H&H's Chestnut


  1. At this rate the Trump dynasty will be in office for eight terms.

    The one part you leave out is the Nazi in question, like EVERY NAZI NOW AND IN THE PAST, is a leftist with the same beliefs as leftists have now.

    I don't know this. But I can guarantee you when the truth comes out, this one guy with an armband was a false flag. Either directly working with Antifa or working for the same people who pay for Antifa.

    And Courtney Campbell? That is really too bad.

    1. Well, I don't know if the guy with the armband was a false flag or not, but it's kind of a moot point, isn't it?

      What do you call an Antifa with a Nazi Armband?
      A Nazi with a Nazi Armband.

    2. Scott Anderson: I was having a conversation with Greg Gorgonmilk on a post GG made about something GG wanted to talk about (which he said in the post- it was to talk about violence.) I was engaged in rational disscussion, not name-calling or insinuations.

      Then he deleted his post, obliterating the original conversation, and gave this interview where he calls me names. I stand by everything I actually said (not the characterization of it). I am avialable via G+ as well as publically contactable by e-mail if anyone has any questions at all.

      I don't share any ideology. I didn't contort anything he said.

    3. Yesterday, in a public Google+ post, Beloch Shrike pretty much confirmed the general outlines of what Greg Gorgonmilk said. But Shrike did it from the standpoint of approval towards what happened. Greg had come out in support of free-speech (even for "Nazis") and against assaulting people (even "Nazis"), and thus most people in the group agreed he needed to be banned for that reason, if for no other. But Shrike also said that many were upset anyway because Greg had exhibited political views that, if not fascist, were "adjacent" to fascism and thus had "crossed the line" many times in the group.

      I assume that either you agree with that characterization or you don't. Shrike said one member had left the group in protest of the banning, but virtually everyone else was on board with it, because defending the rights of "Nazis" simply cannot be tolerated. So, according to Shrike, you seem to have been a part of the banning brigade. Maybe even your allies misunderstand you.

      But it's also notable that in a group where people post actual photos of their own excrement, defending a basic constitutional right that liberals used to claim was sacrosanct is looked upon as "crossing the line." Have you people gone mad?

    4. Wow Oakes. It certainly is true I either agree with a groups characterization or don't!

      I have little interaction with the MBC. I was not involved with any of Gregs interactions with that group.

      I'll be glad to address any questions anyone has for me, but I certainly won't stand in the way of Wild conjecture used to bolster your idelogical possession.

    5. There's that Big Lie again - claiming that opposing the politization of, say, the OSR or opposing the smearing of people is really just "bolstering" some preconceived "ideological position."

      But, yeah. Either you're one of Shrike's Gorgonmilk-is-a-Nazi-defender people or you're not.

  2. Replies
    1. For sure, AntiFa threatens me with a baseball bat I'll firebomb their house, little bitches.

  3. So the guy from Hack&Slash, Dungeon of Signs and Papers and Pencils caused harrassment and doxxing of Gorgonmilk out of the hobby? - This sounds ... weird and I certainly wish Zak S and his habit to do screenshots of important bits of conversation had been around for this one.

  4. Next time anyone is being persecuted by either political extreme, you can always call upon Venger Satanis.

    1. You should set up a Batsignal for them to use when they need you.

    2. Yes, except it'll be a dragon with an erection.

  5. This comment has been removed by the author.

  6. ". And if you go around wearing a swastika armband, you're almost certainly a REAL Nazi."

    Someone in a political rally with a nazi armband = "Almost certainly" a nazi

    1. This dude wasn't at a political rally. The reason I said almost is because there are one or two instances where I could imagine it not to be the case, the most obvious being if someone is deeply mentally ill.

    2. I would wear a Nazi armband solely to antagonize leftists, who deserve to have terrible lives of perpetual fear.

  7. Ever notice how the AntiFags never fuck with real rednecks or dudes that lift? Because they're all little pussies and would die instantly.

  8. The free speech movement is certainly dying. People want controlled speech, speech for someone who wasn't WASP and male.

  9. "The moment he was critically assaulted on multiple social media platforms came, however, when he decided to speak against political violence. For context, it had to do with something that happened in Seattle this week, where a man with a nazi armband was spotted wandering around the Seattle transit by someone who posted a picture online. Antifa immediately sprang into action searching for the guy all over the downtown of that city, and when they found him one of them punched him unconscious. The claim is that he was shouting racist insults at people and that he hurled a banana at a black man; none of that somehow ended up on film even though the punch did (so people were clearly filming; why didn't they film the guy doing the threatening things they claim he was?). But in any case, it's sort of irrelevant; the core of the story is the guy was a visible Nazi, and Antifa hunted him down and beat him unconscious (admittedly, with a single punch; it looks like Antifa finally found someone with upper arm strength! Or a target with a very weak jaw)."

    Psst from your link: "Seattle police officials Monday confirmed reports of a man sporting a swastika armband, saying he was “instigating fights.”" the cops confirmed he was an asshole